BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (2024)

Table of Contents
Summary Live Reporting The sprint to the finish begins, with a week until polling daypublished at 00:11 27 June00:11 27 June Combative exchanges dominate final head-to-head of election campaignpublished at 00:02 27 June00:02 27 June Passionate, argumentative, feisty: Our analysis of the night in 74 secondspublished at 23:58 26 June23:58 26 June Is Starmer right that existing laws protect women-only spaces?published at 23:49 26 June23:49 26 June 'We want a personality... someone we can recognise'published at 23:45 26 June23:45 26 June Have the Tories’ £12bn welfare savings already been spent?published at 23:18 26 June23:18 26 June Six takeaways from a combative evening in Nottinghampublished at 23:04 26 June23:04 26 June Retirement tax, net zero, small boats - BBC Verify tests key claimspublished at 22:45 26 June22:45 26 June Who won? One snap poll suggests... a drawpublished at 22:36 26 June22:36 26 June A debate with anger, passion and jeopardypublished at 22:16 26 June22:16 26 June A battle of wills as Sunak and Starmer come out fightingpublished at 22:09 26 June22:09 26 June Are people still paying the price of Liz Truss’s unfunded tax cuts?published at 22:02 26 June22:02 26 June Debate over, let the spinning beginpublished at 21:58 26 June21:58 26 June Kuenssberg and Myrie's snap verdict? A very spiky eveningpublished at 21:52 26 June21:52 26 June Is Labour’s manifesto fully costed and funded?published at 21:49 26 June21:49 26 June Watch both leaders' 30-second closing statementspublished at 21:46 26 June21:46 26 June A revealing final moment from both leaderspublished at 21:39 26 June21:39 26 June Would Labour put taxes up by £2,000 per family?published at 21:38 26 June21:38 26 June Starmer: If you want the NHS back and a growing economy, vote Labourpublished at 21:33 26 June21:33 26 June Sunak reiterates Labour tax attack in closing statementpublished at 21:32 26 June21:32 26 June

Summary

  • Rishi Sunak and Sir Keir Starmer clash repeatedly on their plans for tax and ways of controlling borders while facing audience questions in a BBC debate

  • They were challenged about integrity in politics, the cost of living and women-only spaces

  • Sunak used his 30-second closing statement to reiterate his controversial £2,000 tax claim, prompting Keir Starmer to shout “that is a lie”

  • While they exchanged barbs over the alleged betting scandal, noises and shouts were heard in the background from protests nearby

  • The debate, hosted by Mishal Husain, was one of the last major set-piece moments before polling day

Live Reporting

Edited by Dulcie Lee and Marita Moloney

  1. The sprint to the finish begins, with a week until polling daypublished at 00:11 27 June

    00:11 27 June

    Chris Mason
    Political editor

    This was the campaign’s mostfree flowing debate.

    Spared the shackles of outwardly noticeable rules andearly campaign nerves; freighted with the jeopardy of the imminence of theelectorate’s verdict.

    Rishi Sunak is the more comfortable of the two in thisformat; he wore the role of underdog with little to lose with a confident,persistent scrutiny of his opponent.

    Keir Starmer – with everything to lose – had his own frequent scripted put-downs and jabs of scepticism; a notabledifference from their ITV outing three weeks ago.

    This felt like a far morecompetitive contest than the opinion polls persistently suggest this electionis.

    After five weeks of campaigning, the vast lead Labour have in the pollsover the Conservatives hasn’t budged.

    This last set piece event now done, thesprint finish to the end of this contest is under way.

  2. Combative exchanges dominate final head-to-head of election campaignpublished at 00:02 27 June

    00:02 27 June

    Dulcie Lee
    Live page editor

    BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (1)

    As we snaffle the final chocolates of the evening, we'll leave the final words of the night to our political editor Chris Mason shortly.

    In the meantime:

    Here's what happened - in 70 words

    • In an at-times fiery debate, Sunak and Starmer clashed on tax, immigration, the betting scandal and more - get up to speed in our summary here
    • Both leaders came out fighting, as our chief political correspondent Henry Zeffman wrote in his snap analysis here
    • The pair traded claims on a retirement tax, migration, and Liz Truss - our colleagues at BBC Verify have raked over the key claims here

    Hungry for more?

    • Listen to Laura Kuenssberg, Chris Mason and Adam Fleming on Newscast here
    • Watch the highlights of the night in our pinned video above
    • Read our six key takeaways here

    Still not sure who to vote for?

    Compare what all the major parties are promising on everything from the NHS to housing in our manifesto tracker here.

    From the team here in New Broadcasting House, thanks for joining us, have a lovely evening.

  3. Passionate, argumentative, feisty: Our analysis of the night in 74 secondspublished at 23:58 26 June

    23:58 26 June

    Watch our chief political correspondent Henry Zeffman's match report in this short clip below:

  4. BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (2)

    Is Starmer right that existing laws protect women-only spaces?published at 23:49 26 June

    23:49 26 June

    By Tamara Kovacevic

    In an exchange withRishi Sunak over the Tory pledge to rewrite the Equality Act to helpmaintain women-only spaces, Sir Keir Starmer said: “This is all setout in the Equalities Act already, the specific instance of safe spaces."

    The Equality Act 2010, externalsays no-one should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

    But the law also sayssingle-sex service providers can choose to exclude transgender people wherethis is a ''proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim''.

    An example given by the Equality Act, external is that organisers of group counselling for female sexual assaultvictims could exclude a trans woman if they judged that clients would beunlikely to attend the session if she was there.

    In 2022, the Equalityand Human Rights Commission - Britain's human rights body – published further guidance for providers of single-sex services.

    It said, for example,that domestic abuse refuges could bar transgender women, external if biologically femalesurvivors indicated they felt uncomfortable sharing accommodation with transwomen.

  5. 'We want a personality... someone we can recognise'published at 23:45 26 June

    23:45 26 June

    In the spin room after the debate finished, Clive Myrie caught up with two members of the audience who asked questions of Sunak and Starmer.

    See whether they felt their questions were answered in this two-minute clip below:

  6. BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (3)

    Have the Tories’ £12bn welfare savings already been spent?published at 23:18 26 June

    23:18 26 June

    Ben Chu, BBC Verify

    The Tories have pledged £12bn of savings from the welfare budget, but Keir Starmer said: "The money’s been spent. The money isn’t there."

    But this isn’t quiteright.

    Starmer’s claim is basedon Jeremy Hunt’s claim in a newsletter to his constituents this month that thetax cuts in the Conservative manifesto would be funded by savings from"an enormous back to work programme (which I announced in theAutumn Statement last year)".

    Some of the welfarereform measures in the Tory manifesto do seem to have been previously announcedin the autumn of 2023 including:

    • Strengthening benefit sanctions
    • Work capability assessment reforms
    • Investment in mental health treatments to help people back to work

    These measures werefactored into the Office for Budget Responsibility's spending calculations atthe time of the 2023 Autumn Statement, meaning any savings are already banked.

    However, not all of thewelfare measures in the Tory manifesto were previouslyannounced, including:

    • Fit note reform
    • Accelerating the roll out of Universal Credit
    • Reforming access to disability benefits

    For more detail readhere

  7. Six takeaways from a combative evening in Nottinghampublished at 23:04 26 June

    23:04 26 June

    Emily Atkinson
    Reporting from the BBC debate spin room

    BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (4)

    We've just caught our breath after a frenetic final televised head-to-head between Rishi Sunak and Sir Keir Starmer, the beginning of which was almost drowned out by protests outside.

    Blinked and missed it? Here’s a round-up of all the key moments:

    Migration

    • There was a long and heated exchange over migration - Starmer said the government had lost control, while Sunak told voters not to "surrender the country's security" to Labour

    Taxes

    • The PM repeated his well-worn claim that Labour would raise taxes if it won the election, while his party would cut them, a claim rejected by Starmer who pointed to the economic fallout of the unfunded tax cuts under Liz Truss

    Alleged bets

    • Sunak said he was "frustrated and furious” when he learned of the betting allegations against his candidates, while Starmer said he wanted to "reset politics"

    Leadership

    • Asked by one audience member “are you two really the best we've got” to be PM, Starmer recalled his role as Director of Public Prosecutions while Sunak pushed his record on the economy

    Protecting women-only spaces

    • Sunak said "sex means biological sex" and he would protect such spaces - Starmer said it was important to protect women's spaces, and all people need to be treated “with dignity and respect”

    Brexit

    • Starmer said he won't accept that the UK can't get a better Brexit deal than the current one - while Sunak claimed there would be free movement "by the back door" under Labour
  8. Retirement tax, net zero, small boats - BBC Verify tests key claimspublished at 22:45 26 June

    22:45 26 June

    BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (5)Image source, Getty Images

    Claim and counterclaim were flying around the BBC debate studio during tonight's 75-minute head-to-head.

    Our colleagues at BBC Verify have been digging into various claims made by Sunak and Starmer, including:

    • Will Labour bring in a retirement tax?
    • Have 50,000 people crossed the Channel under Sunak?
    • Will Labour's net zero plans cost hundreds of billions?
    • Are people still paying the price of Liz Truss’s unfunded tax cuts?

    For answers and analysis on all of these, check out their piece here.

  9. Who won? One snap poll suggests... a drawpublished at 22:36 26 June

    22:36 26 June

    And after a spiky 75-minute debate on some key topics of the election, a snap poll from YouGov suggests there was no outright winner.

    Asked who performed best - "leaving aside your own party preferences" - the result came in as 50/50.

    However, Conservative 2019 voters who watched the debate thought Sunak won by 82% to 18%.

    And here are some other interesting metrics: Asked who BBC debate viewers thought came across as more:

    • Trustworthy: Sunak 39% / Starmer 50%
    • Likeable: Sunak 33% / Starmer 52%
    • In touch: Sunak 18% / Starmer 63%
    • Prime ministerial: Sunak 41% / Starmer 42%

    The polling company had a sample of 1,716 debate viewers for their poll.

  10. BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (6)

    A debate with anger, passion and jeopardypublished at 22:16 26 June

    22:16 26 June

    Chris Mason
    Political editor

    Tonight was all about the tone - the exchanges as opposed to the content.

    Of course, the content matters but muchof that will be familiar to regular viewers over the last five weeks.

    It was the exchanges that defined tonight.

    It was a morefree-flowing debate than we’ve seen previously - there was more anger, there was more passion, there was more jeopardy.

    Sunak had nothing to lose tonight and that defined hisapproach - he really went for it.

    Starmer had everything to lose and you couldsense that too, but he was much more aggressive than he was a few weeks backwhen the equivalent programme took place on ITV.

    Tonight, the scripted put downs were there from both ofthem, the things they anticipate will be clipped up on social media in thecoming minutes and hours and circulate with a half-life between now and pollingday.

    They were prepped, they were conscious of what was at stake. It was quite a watch.

  11. BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (7)

    A battle of wills as Sunak and Starmer come out fightingpublished at 22:09 26 June

    22:09 26 June

    Henry Zeffman
    Chief political correspondent

    BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (8)

    It’s obvious what an important eventtonight was in this general election campaign. The two leaders’ body languagepractically radiated it.

    Rishi Sunak had the franticenergy of someone whose career is riding on this last week of the campaign. Tobe fair, it pretty much is.

    You could see in Sunak’sdetermination to land key arguments and even key words — “surrender” wasthe new soundbite tonight — that he really wanted to make this lastset-piece moment count.

    But you also saw in Starmer adetermination not to be blown off course. He tried to land the core messages hehas been pushing throughout this campaign: about change, about the past 14years, about how Labour’s position on Brexit has changed since the UK completedits departure from the bloc.

    I was also very struck by the wayin Starmer’s closing statement he kept reminding voters that if they want aLabour government then they had to “vote for it”.

    Everybody knows the story thatthe polls are telling about this campaign. But we don’t know if they are right,and we don’t know how they might be shaping voter behaviour.

    Not long left to find out.

  12. BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (9)

    Are people still paying the price of Liz Truss’s unfunded tax cuts?published at 22:02 26 June

    22:02 26 June

    By Ben King, BBCVerify

    During the debate, Keir Starmer saidthe Conservatives were planning “unfunded tax cuts” and added that LizTruss had tried that experiment and that “people are still paying theprice” - he went on to say people “are now paying hundreds of pounds more because of the damage done to the economy”.

    It is true that there wasa spike in mortgage rates after the mini-budget - which included unfunded taxcuts, during Truss’s short-lived premiership.

    But mortgage rates hadbeen rising before the mini-budget, as the Bank of England put up interestrates to fight the inflation which began rising after the pandemic and the warin Ukraine. That spike faded away early in 2023.

    The Bank of Englandgovernor said last January that the effect of the mini-budget had“pretty much gone” from interest rates.

    But anyone who did takeout a fixed-rate mortgage shortly after it may have signed up to a higherinterest rate than they otherwise would have.

    BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (10)

  13. Debate over, let the spinning beginpublished at 21:58 26 June

    21:58 26 June

    Emily Atkinson
    Reporting from the BBC debate spin room

    The moment the end credits rolled on the BBC Prime Ministerial Debate, journalists and politicians leapt out of their seats, and the spinning began.

    This is a moment for the politicians representing Labour and the Tories to try to convince us journalists and you at home that their man won.

    Laura Kuenssberg and Clive Myrie are currently presenting reaction and analysis live from the spin room - you can follow that live by tapping the watch live button above.

    BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (11)

  14. Kuenssberg and Myrie's snap verdict? A very spiky eveningpublished at 21:52 26 June

    21:52 26 June

    Laura Kuenssberg and Clive Myrie are giving their snap reaction to the debate (which you can watch live above).

    Myrie says it was a "spiky" evening, while Kuenssberg says you could tell both men know "the time is now".

    She notes both Sunak and Starmer had keywords they kept returning to, in the case of the prime minister it was the idea of voters "surrendering" to a Labour government.

    For Starmer she says it was the idea of "14 years" of Tory government, which he would return to regularly to emphasise how long his opponents have held power.

  15. BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (12)

    Is Labour’s manifesto fully costed and funded?published at 21:49 26 June

    21:49 26 June

    By Anthony Reuben

    In the debate, Keir Starmersaid Labour’s manifesto was “fully funded, fully costed”.

    But in its analysis ofmanifestos earlier in the week, independent think tank the Institute for FiscalStudies said that it was suspicious of claims that they were fully funded,particularly on promises to reduce NHS waiting times.

    “You can’t pledge to endall waits of more than 18 weeks, allocate no money to that pledge, and thenclaim to have a fully costed manifesto,” IFS director Paul Johnson said.

    He also said that theConservatives’ commitments to the NHS “are essentially unfunded”.

  16. Watch both leaders' 30-second closing statementspublished at 21:46 26 June

    21:46 26 June

  17. BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (13)

    A revealing final moment from both leaderspublished at 21:39 26 June

    21:39 26 June

    Henry Zeffman
    Chief political correspondent

    Those pre-scripted closingstatements give us the clearest sense of where both parties think they standwith just over a week to go until polling day.

    From Rishi Sunak, an overtindication that the Conservatives believe they are behind. He opened essentiallywith an apology, trying to empathise with voters’ "frustrations" with theConservatives, and even "with me".

    But he tried to insist that theelection should not just be about venting frustration because it has "profoundconsequences".

    He also used his 30 seconds asan opportunity to reiterate his controversial £2000 tax claim, prompting afurious Keir Starmer to shout "that is a lie".

    From Starmer, the same messageas throughout the campaign - "vote change". But with a twist. He ended hisfirst few sentences by telling the public: "You have to vote for it."

    That may betray just a flickerof concern from Labour that some of their potential voters see this election asa foregone conclusion and may therefore not be certain to go and vote.

  18. BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (14)

    Would Labour put taxes up by £2,000 per family?published at 21:38 26 June

    21:38 26 June

    By Anthony Reuben

    In his closing statement, Rishi Sunak again said people would pay at least £2,000 more in tax under a Labour government.

    The figure risksmisleading people, not least because it consists of £500 a year extrafor four years. That is not what you would normally think of ifsomebody said your taxes were going up by £2,000.

    The Tories reached thefigure by adding up how much they claim Labour’s spending plans wouldcost - £38.5bn over four years - and dividing this by the number of*ck households with at least one person working. Labour disputes thefigure.

    The Conservatives saythe costings were worked out by impartial civil servants, but some are based onassumptions made by politically appointed special advisers.

    For example, one costinglooks at Labour’s plan to have more services provided by the state instead ofby private companies and it assumes that private companies are always 7.5%more efficient. But the civil servants doing the costings warned about the useof that figure.

    Read more here.

  19. Starmer: If you want the NHS back and a growing economy, vote Labourpublished at 21:33 26 June

    21:33 26 June

    BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (15)

    Starmer says he has a "simple message" - if you want the NHS back, a growing economy, more police on the streets, more teachers in schools, then vote Labour.

    The power to "end 14 years of Tory chaos" is "in your hands", he says.

    And that brings us to the end of the debate. Stick with us for analysis and reaction.

  20. Sunak reiterates Labour tax attack in closing statementpublished at 21:32 26 June

    21:32 26 June

    BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (16)

    "I understand why you're frustrated with our party, with me," Sunak says.

    He says this is not a byelection - it's a choice with profound consequences.

    He makes the claim that under Labour people would pay £2,000 more in tax and says Starmer isn't being straight about his polices. (BBC Verify has previously looked into that figure and found it risks misleading people.)

    He ends by urging voters not to vote for any other party.

BBC election leaders debate live: Sunak and Starmer clash over borders, tax and gender (2024)
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